Legacy wiki -- statement?

So what do we need to be saying here? Ideas?

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legacy

Eric Rostetter

2006-12-02 21:52:11 UTC

Post by David D. Eisenstein
So what do we need to be saying here? Ideas?

I think we're going a bit fast... Do we really want to wrap up the
project now, or just put it on hold for a while, or wait until we
hear back about the 13 month plan? I'm not sure we have a consences
yet...

Post by David D. Eisenstein
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legacy

I would say we can come up with something that says we're evaluating
our options, and you shouldn't expect (or depend on) timely updates
at this time, yada yada yada. But I'm not sure we should completely
pull the plug yet (without more consensus like discussions) and I sure
don't think we should say stuff about the open-core/13-month-extension
and so on that are not yet decided.

Or, maybe I just missed the consensus? Or maybe I missed the principles
statement they are bailing?

--
Eric Rostetter
The Department of Physics
The University of Texas at Austin

Go Longhorns!

Axel Thimm

2006-12-09 21:40:30 UTC

Post by Eric Rostetter

Post by David D. Eisenstein
So what do we need to be saying here? Ideas?

Post by David D. Eisenstein
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legacy

I would say we can come up with something that says we're evaluating
our options, and you shouldn't expect (or depend on) timely updates
at this time, yada yada yada. But I'm not sure we should completely
pull the plug yet (without more consensus like discussions) and I sure
don't think we should say stuff about the open-core/13-month-extension
and so on that are not yet decided.
Or, maybe I just missed the consensus? Or maybe I missed the principles
statement they are bailing?

The longer we wait the more it will look like a failure. Better be
active and tell the users that we're working on something than letting
them find out by themselves by being bitten.

We can't and shouldn't announce anything on core/extra's behalf, we
just need to say that the current model is being reorganized and while
doing so distributions X, Y, Z have effectively fallen out of
maintenance.

--
Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net

Matthew Miller

2006-12-10 01:40:10 UTC

Post by Axel Thimm
We can't and shouldn't announce anything on core/extra's behalf, we
just need to say that the current model is being reorganized and while
doing so distributions X, Y, Z have effectively fallen out of
maintenance.

where X=2, Y=3, and Z=4. :)

--
Matthew Miller ***@mattdm.org <http://mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>

Mike McCarty

2006-12-11 23:56:42 UTC

where X=2, Y=3, and Z=4. :)

Hmm. Do you mean FC2, FC3, and FC4? FC2 has been out of support
for quite some time, and for other reasons.

Mike

--
p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!

Matthew Miller

2006-12-12 01:49:24 UTC

where X=2, Y=3, and Z=4. :)

Hmm. Do you mean FC2, FC3, and FC4? FC2 has been out of support
for quite some time, and for other reasons.

Well, I had three values to work with. :)

--
Matthew Miller ***@mattdm.org <http://mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>

Mike McCarty

2006-12-12 08:44:29 UTC

where X=2, Y=3, and Z=4. :)

Hmm. Do you mean FC2, FC3, and FC4? FC2 has been out of support
for quite some time, and for other reasons.

Well, I had three values to work with. :)

I'd love it if FC2 were still supported to any degree. It isn't,
and hasn't been and won't be, I guess.

Mike

Eric Rostetter

2006-12-11 21:16:03 UTC

Post by Axel Thimm
The longer we wait the more it will look like a failure. Better be
active and tell the users that we're working on something than letting
them find out by themselves by being bitten.

That is what I was proposing. But it seems to have been met by
silence. And I still have no idea myself what is going on.

Sounds good. Someone who has edit rights should post something on the
wiki, and others can then edit it or correct it or what ever...

Due to the silence, I guess someone should just take this one and
get the ball rolling...

If _no one_ will step up to do it, I can do it by request, but since
I have little actual understanding of what people want or where the
project is allegedly going, I'm probably not the best person to do it.

--
Eric Rostetter
The Department of Physics
The University of Texas at Austin

Go Longhorns!

Jeff Sheltren

2006-12-11 23:31:11 UTC

Post by Eric Rostetter

That is what I was proposing. But it seems to have been met by
silence. And I still have no idea myself what is going on.

Sounds good. Someone who has edit rights should post something on the
wiki, and others can then edit it or correct it or what ever...
Due to the silence, I guess someone should just take this one and
get the ball rolling...
If _no one_ will step up to do it, I can do it by request, but since
I have little actual understanding of what people want or where the
project is allegedly going, I'm probably not the best person to do it.

I agree, and I've changed the Legacy page on the wiki. If someone
can think of a better way to put it, please let me know.

-Jeff

Eric Rostetter

2006-12-12 19:47:01 UTC

I agree, and I've changed the Legacy page on the wiki. If someone can
think of a better way to put it, please let me know.
-Jeff

If Jesse approves, I can put the same notice on the fedoralegacy.org
web site...

--
Eric Rostetter
The Department of Physics
The University of Texas at Austin

Go Longhorns!

Jesse Keating

2006-12-12 20:45:18 UTC

Post by Eric Rostetter
If Jesse approves, I can put the same notice on the fedoralegacy.org
web site...

Please do.

--
Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net)
Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org)
GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub)

Jesse Keating

2006-12-12 20:48:31 UTC

Post by Eric Rostetter
If Jesse approves, I can put the same notice on the fedoralegacy.org
web site...

Please do.

And once done, I suppose I draft something up for the announce list.

--
Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net)
Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org)
GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub)

Jeff Sheltren

2006-12-12 22:54:26 UTC

Post by Eric Rostetter
If Jesse approves, I can put the same notice on the fedoralegacy.org
web site...

Please do.

And once done, I suppose I draft something up for the announce list.

Thanks Jesse, if you want help, let me (or the list) know.

- -Jeff

Eric Rostetter

2006-12-13 02:02:27 UTC

Post by Eric Rostetter
If Jesse approves, I can put the same notice on the fedoralegacy.org
web site...

Please do.

I copied the wiki text to the website... I'm not happy with the way
it looks, so I'll try to improve it when I get time, but at least it
is up on the site now...

Post by Jesse Keating
--
Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net)
Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org)
GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub)

--
Eric Rostetter
The Department of Physics
The University of Texas at Austin

Go Longhorns!

Nils Breunese (Lemonbit)

2006-12-13 17:03:35 UTC

Post by Eric Rostetter
I copied the wiki text to the website... I'm not happy with the way
it looks, so I'll try to improve it when I get time, but at least it
is up on the site now...

Can someone also edit http://download.fedoralegacy.org/ ? It lists
FC3 and FC4 as active releases.

Nils Breunese.

Nils Breunese (Lemonbit)

2006-12-17 15:20:23 UTC

Post by Nils Breunese (Lemonbit)

Who can fix this?

Nils Breunese.

Post by Eric Rostetter
I copied the wiki text to the website... I'm not happy with the way
it looks, so I'll try to improve it when I get time, but at least it
is up on the site now...

Can someone also edit http://download.fedoralegacy.org/ ? It lists
FC3 and FC4 as active releases.
Nils Breunese.

Jesse Keating

2006-12-17 21:26:25 UTC

Post by Nils Breunese (Lemonbit)
Who can fix this?

Oops, sorry I can fix this, I've just been busy this weekend.

--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora

David Eisner

2006-12-18 14:53:19 UTC

Post by Jesse Keating
Oops, sorry I can fix this, I've just been busy this weekend

While you're at it, the "Supported Releases" sidebar on fedoralegacy.org
still says:

---snip---
The following releases are currently fully supported by the Fedora
Legacy Project.

* Red Hat Linux 7.3
* Red Hat Linux 9
* Fedora Core 3
* Fedora Core 4

---snip---

-David

Jesse Keating

2006-12-12 00:10:03 UTC

That is what I was proposing. But it seems to have been met by
silence. And I still have no idea myself what is going on.

I was hoping that David would make a comment/decision. Failing that, yes, we
can shut things down. Point to the proposals for the longer life span,
etc...

--
Jesse Keating
Release Engineer: Fedora

Roozbeh Pournader

2006-12-12 09:32:26 UTC

Well, apparently some hosting companies, like 1&1, are still offering
their customers Fedora Core 4.

http://tinyurl.com/y4q3j3
http://tinyurl.com/y7pj9r

I guess we should try to make things more obvious, or we may be
jeopardizing several servers on the Internet...

Roozbeh

Jeff Sheltren

2006-12-12 10:54:45 UTC

Post by Roozbeh Pournader
Well, apparently some hosting companies, like 1&1, are still offering
their customers Fedora Core 4.
http://tinyurl.com/y4q3j3
http://tinyurl.com/y7pj9r
I guess we should try to make things more obvious, or we may be
jeopardizing several servers on the Internet...
Roozbeh

I Roozbeh, do you mean more obvious than what is currently on the wiki?
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legacy

-Jeff

Roozbeh Pournader

2006-12-12 12:19:02 UTC

Post by Jeff Sheltren
I Roozbeh, do you mean more obvious than what is currently on the wiki?
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legacy

Well, yes, we need to make people aware of the situation. There may be
other hosting companies, and even if there are no other offering FC4,
there are several people who use server boxes from these companies.

If Fedora Core 4 is dropped, we need a statement that should be
well-publicized (at least posted to, say, LWN), if it is not but we lack
resources, we should post requests for developers.

Roozbeh

Nils Breunese (Lemonbit)

2006-12-12 12:50:54 UTC

Post by Jeff Sheltren

I Roozbeh, do you mean more obvious than what is currently on the wiki?
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legacy

Is this info going out to fedora-announce and the like? A lot of
people that need to know this might not be visiting the wiki that
often...

Nils Breunese.

Nils Breunese (Lemonbit)

2006-12-12 12:46:21 UTC

1&1 offer servers with the Plesk Control Panel. Until like two weeks
ago Plesk was only supported on FC1-FC4. They recently added FC5
support, but I guess Fedora is just moving too fast for something
like Plesk. Yes, you're reading that right: Plesk is still supported
on FC1. They don't tell you that FC1 itself has been EOL for some
time now. Note that Plesk is not particularly unique in this...

Nils Breunese.

Matthew Miller

2006-12-12 18:41:16 UTC

Post by Nils Breunese (Lemonbit)
like Plesk. Yes, you're reading that right: Plesk is still supported
on FC1. They don't tell you that FC1 itself has been EOL for some
time now. Note that Plesk is not particularly unique in this...

Totally. This is why I'm surprised that there's not been more interest in
Legacy.

But not too surprised -- most people don't really care about keeping their
systems secure.

--
Matthew Miller ***@mattdm.org <http://mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>

Stephen John Smoogen

2006-12-14 05:46:30 UTC

Totally. This is why I'm surprised that there's not been more interest in
Legacy.
But not too surprised -- most people don't really care about keeping their
systems secure.

The biggest problem is that 99 out of a 100 people have no idea about
their computer than they do about their car. If you read the car
manual, you should probably check the oil and tire air pressure at
least once a week, etc etc. But the majority of people might never
check it beyond making sure that they take the car into the shop when
the light goes yellow.

They want the same from their computer systems and servers. The
computer is to get them from point A to point B, get the morning mail,
play some games, put up pictures of the family dog. The idea that they
have to check the oil daily is foreign and basically gets put into the
back corner because the computer is supposed to be like a TV set,
radio, or car.

--
Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator
How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed
in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice"

Roozbeh Pournader

2006-12-12 12:49:23 UTC

OK, there are quite a few other Fedora Core 4 offers:

http://www.valueweb.com/dedicated/dsLinux.htm

Most of the dedicated hosting sites that offer Fedora don't mention a
version on the front page, but I tried diving a little, and it seems
that most of them may still be offering 3 and 4. I found one 5, but
still no 6.

For a list of major hosting companies offering Linux solutions, I used
NetCraft's statistics, see:

http://uptime.netcraft.com/perf/reports/performance/Hosters?tn=november_2006

Roozbeh

Jesse Keating

2006-12-12 15:06:23 UTC

Post by Roozbeh Pournader
Most of the dedicated hosting sites that offer Fedora don't mention a
version on the front page, but I tried diving a little, and it seems
that most of them may still be offering 3 and 4. I found one 5, but
still no 6.
For a list of major hosting companies offering Linux solutions, I used
http://uptime.netcraft.com/perf/reports/performance/Hosters?tn=november_200
6

If any of these hosting firms or softwares like plesk would put up some
resources to keep legacy going, we might not have had to shut the doors.
Unfortunately its all take take take and no give.

--
Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net)
Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org)
GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub)

Nils Breunese (Lemonbit)

2006-12-12 15:20:52 UTC

If any of these hosting firms or softwares like plesk would put up some
resources to keep legacy going, we might not have had to shut the doors.
Unfortunately its all take take take and no give.

I agree and we could just end it at that and say we don't care
everybody and their dog is running unpatched systems. But has anyone
ever tried contacting these big companies and explaining the
situation to maybe get some resources for the Legacy Project from
them? Or does that sound too much like begging to people here?
Companies like Dell just approach the Infrastructure Team and say
"Hey, we could give you guys a couple of our servers, where would you
like us to send them?" I guess it doesn't work like that for others,
but they might just want to cooperate. Or they might just not care
that their customers run unpatched systems. Since they also offer
support on their software I guess that helping Legacy out might just
benefit them too.

Nils Breunese.

Jesse Keating

2006-12-12 15:27:35 UTC

I agree and we could just end it at that and say we don't care Â
everybody and their dog is running unpatched systems. But has anyone Â
ever tried contacting these big companies and explaining the Â
situation to maybe get some resources for the Legacy Project from Â
them? Or does that sound too much like begging to people here? Â
Companies like Dell just approach the Infrastructure Team and say Â
"Hey, we could give you guys a couple of our servers, where would you Â
like us to send them?" I guess it doesn't work like that for others, Â
but they might just want to cooperate. Or they might just not care Â
that their customers run unpatched systems. Since they also offer Â
support on their software I guess that helping Legacy out might just Â
benefit them too.

Frankly I'm done with this project. I've tried to pass off leadership, and
then that got a bit sabotaged by what Fedora Project wants to do with
lifespan in future releases (which I think is a good happy middle ground),
but it isn't really interesting to do support for older Fedoras for the next
year or so.

If somebody wants to run with it, by all means. I'll turn over information
about how to use the build system and push to the mirrors. I don't want to
see Legacy to touch the newer Fedora releases that might carry the new longer
lifespan, I think 13 months is the best possible compromise.

--
Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net)
Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org)
GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub)

Nils Breunese (Lemonbit)

2006-12-12 15:47:55 UTC

Post by Nils Breunese (Lemonbit)
I agree and we could just end it at that and say we don't care
everybody and their dog is running unpatched systems. But has anyone
ever tried contacting these big companies and explaining the
situation to maybe get some resources for the Legacy Project from
them? Or does that sound too much like begging to people here?
Companies like Dell just approach the Infrastructure Team and say
"Hey, we could give you guys a couple of our servers, where would you
like us to send them?" I guess it doesn't work like that for others,
but they might just want to cooperate. Or they might just not care
that their customers run unpatched systems. Since they also offer
support on their software I guess that helping Legacy out might just
benefit them too.

Frankly I'm done with this project. I've tried to pass off
leadership, and
then that got a bit sabotaged by what Fedora Project wants to do with
lifespan in future releases (which I think is a good happy middle ground),
but it isn't really interesting to do support for older Fedoras for the next
year or so.
If somebody wants to run with it, by all means. I'll turn over information
about how to use the build system and push to the mirrors. I don't want to
see Legacy to touch the newer Fedora releases that might carry the new longer
lifespan, I think 13 months is the best possible compromise.

I was just thinking out loud really. I don't expect it is possible to
revive the Legacy Project at this point, but was just thinking that
maybe trying to get companies that build on Fedora (not just Fedora
Legacy) to supply resources might be a good idea. I don't know if
this already being done, but as I said: I was just thinking out loud.
I think you did a great job, Jesse, too bad it has to end like this.

Now, let me get started on migrating those last servers running
legacy versions of Fedora Core...

Nils Breunese.

Mike McCarty

2006-12-12 22:42:36 UTC

Post by Nils Breunese (Lemonbit)
I was just thinking out loud really. I don't expect it is possible to
revive the Legacy Project at this point, but was just thinking that
maybe trying to get companies that build on Fedora (not just Fedora
Legacy) to supply resources might be a good idea. I don't know if this
already being done, but as I said: I was just thinking out loud. I
think you did a great job, Jesse, too bad it has to end like this.
Now, let me get started on migrating those last servers running legacy
versions of Fedora Core...

Migrating them to what? That's my question.

Mike

Matthew Miller

2006-12-13 01:45:33 UTC

Post by Nils Breunese (Lemonbit)
Now, let me get started on migrating those last servers running legacy
versions of Fedora Core...

Migrating them to what? That's my question.

If you can't upgrade every year (or ideally, twice year), CentOS is the
clear answer.

--
Matthew Miller ***@mattdm.org <http://mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>

Philip Molter

2006-12-13 14:16:47 UTC

Post by Nils Breunese (Lemonbit)
Now, let me get started on migrating those last servers running legacy
versions of Fedora Core...

Migrating them to what? That's my question.

If you can't upgrade every year (or ideally, twice year), CentOS is the
clear answer.

If you make that kind of statement, you are effectively removing
high-end server testing from Fedora Core. If FC is still supposed to be
a testbed for the newer software, whether it's desktop or high-end
server, then that sounds like the wrong thing to say.

There are people who run servers for whom CentOS isn't a viable
alternative because hardware upgrades necessitate running newer kernels
and software than is available in current enterprise releases. Right
now, the Redhat/CentOS enterprise software offering is moving at a
slower pace than the hardware people might run it on. That's the case
for us. That's why we run Fedora Core on our rather large amount of
servers.

I'm not saying this to complain or try to keep FC4 active or anything
like that. The FL project made their choices and we made ours based on
what was stated at the time. I see a lot of, "Well, if you can't keep
up with our pace, CentOS is the distro for you," though, and that's just
not true. The FL project was a nice middle-ground for people between FC
and CentOS.

Philip

Rahul Sundaram

2006-12-13 14:18:57 UTC

Post by Philip Molter
If you make that kind of statement, you are effectively removing
high-end server testing from Fedora Core. If FC is still supposed to be
a testbed for the newer software, whether it's desktop or high-end
server, then that sounds like the wrong thing to say.

Well, since we want people to use Fedora on its own I guess thats a good
thing to say.

Post by Philip Molter
There are people who run servers for whom CentOS isn't a viable
alternative because hardware upgrades necessitate running newer kernels
and software than is available in current enterprise releases. Right
now, the Redhat/CentOS enterprise software offering is moving at a
slower pace than the hardware people might run it on. That's the case
for us. That's why we run Fedora Core on our rather large amount of
servers.

If running Fedora on more than what the project has already planned to
do (which is for around 13 months), people who are expecting a longer
lifecyle should contribute towards that and find the middle ground they
need to.

Rahul

Matthew Miller

2006-12-13 14:40:59 UTC

Post by Philip Molter

Post by Nils Breunese (Lemonbit)
Now, let me get started on migrating those last servers running legacy
versions of Fedora Core...

Migrating them to what? That's my question.

If you can't upgrade every year (or ideally, twice year), CentOS is the
clear answer.

It is the *truthful* thing to say. I agree wholeheartedly with you, but
without serious (financial and personnel) backing for Fedora Legacy, it
*cannot happen*.

--
Matthew Miller ***@mattdm.org <http://mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>

Stephen John Smoogen

2006-12-14 05:49:06 UTC

Post by Philip Molter

Post by Nils Breunese (Lemonbit)
Now, let me get started on migrating those last servers running legacy
versions of Fedora Core...

Migrating them to what? That's my question.

If you can't upgrade every year (or ideally, twice year), CentOS is the
clear answer.

It is the *truthful* thing to say. I agree wholeheartedly with you, but
without serious (financial and personnel) backing for Fedora Legacy, it
*cannot happen*.

And the resources should not be Red Hat's. Red Hat already plows
enough money into Fedora.. this is where the community (if there is
one) has to supply the labour to deal with the fields that are fallow.

--
Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator
How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed
in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice"

Nils Breunese (Lemonbit)

2006-12-13 09:41:12 UTC

Post by Nils Breunese (Lemonbit)
I was just thinking out loud really. I don't expect it is possible
to revive the Legacy Project at this point, but was just thinking
that maybe trying to get companies that build on Fedora (not just
Fedora Legacy) to supply resources might be a good idea. I don't
know if this already being done, but as I said: I was just
thinking out loud. I think you did a great job, Jesse, too bad it
has to end like this.
Now, let me get started on migrating those last servers running
legacy versions of Fedora Core...

Migrating them to what? That's my question.

CentOS 4. Why do you ask?

Nils Breunese.

Mike McCarty

2006-12-25 12:57:28 UTC

Post by Nils Breunese (Lemonbit)

Post by Mike McCarty
Migrating them to what? That's my question.

CentOS 4. Why do you ask?
Nils Breunese.

You seem to think this is a foregone conclusion.

Well, I'm not moving to CentOS. I find the bickering and overbearing
attitude of the "moderator" of the unmoderated forum for assistance
to be unbearable.

Perhaps Scientific Linux would be better. I haven't looked at their
user forum. I'm downloading the Scientific Linux LiveCD right
now. Perhaps White Box.

I'm considering leaving Red Hat type product altogether. Perhaps
I'll switch to Debian. I'm already having to do system support
for a Debian box.

So, I don't understand why you wouldn't understand why one would
ask.

Mike

Nils Breunese (Lemonbit)

2006-12-25 19:32:09 UTC

Post by Nils Breunese (Lemonbit)

Post by Mike McCarty
Migrating them to what? That's my question.

CentOS 4. Why do you ask?
Nils Breunese.

You seem to think this is a foregone conclusion.

I don't. But for my needs, yes, I have come to this conclusion some
time ago. I'm already running most of my servers on CentOS 4 and I
have been very happy with it. No problems so far.

Post by Mike McCarty
Well, I'm not moving to CentOS. I find the bickering and overbearing
attitude of the "moderator" of the unmoderated forum for assistance
to be unbearable.

I wouldn't know, I don't frequent the CentOS forums.

Post by Mike McCarty
So, I don't understand why you wouldn't understand why one would
ask.

I didn't say I didn't understand why someone would ask. Maybe it's
that English is not my native language, but I was genuinely
interested why I was asked. If the answer for instance was: "Well, I
haven't made up my mind yet, why are you choosing CentOS instead of
Red Hat or White Box?" I could've for instance tell you about the
differences between Fedora, CentOS and Red Hat. You already seem to
know about the differences and apparently you have already decided
that you're not moving to CentOS. Well, that's fine with me too. Good
luck with migrating your machines!

Merry Christmas all!

Nils Breunese.

Stephen John Smoogen

2006-12-14 05:40:45 UTC